Comments on: A Proprietary Web? Blame the W3C https://pseudosavant.com/blog/2008/07/08/a-proprietary-web-blame-the-w3c/ The Musings of Paul Ellis Wed, 13 Apr 2011 03:03:02 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=5.6 By: Responsive Design is an Official W3C Recommendation | Arbor Web Solutions https://pseudosavant.com/blog/2008/07/08/a-proprietary-web-blame-the-w3c/comment-page-2/#comment-1684 Wed, 13 Apr 2011 03:03:02 +0000 http://pseudosavant.com/blog/?p=148#comment-1684 […] from idea to official recommendation is fraught with bureaucracy, and the W3C has frequently been criticized for its glacial […]

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By: W3C’s Role In the Growth of a Proprietary Web | External Brain https://pseudosavant.com/blog/2008/07/08/a-proprietary-web-blame-the-w3c/comment-page-2/#comment-1154 Sun, 19 Sep 2010 23:35:37 +0000 http://pseudosavant.com/blog/?p=148#comment-1154 […] is the line between serving the consumer and subverting the Web? This blog post makes the case that the W3C’s glacial process should share in the blame for the growth of proprietary technologies — via Slashdot This entry was posted in […]

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By: Joaquin Menchaca https://pseudosavant.com/blog/2008/07/08/a-proprietary-web-blame-the-w3c/comment-page-2/#comment-1117 Thu, 15 Apr 2010 13:57:27 +0000 http://pseudosavant.com/blog/?p=148#comment-1117 I listened to presentation from top popular web client developers about browser incompatibilities. What they do is pretty amazing, but what they have to deal with is pretty absurd. The problem has been both arrogance of W3C and their disconnect with implementers/developers according the comments mentioned, and I would have to agree. The whole WHATWG and HTML5 was an initial separate endeavor to address the need for upgrading web standards and respond for need for RIA.

I’m excited with the current web client libraries like jQuery, and future SVG client libraries (maybe svgweb?) as well as future HTML5 client libraries. I hope there can be powerful tools like Flash that output SVG or HTML5.

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By: SammyBeta https://pseudosavant.com/blog/2008/07/08/a-proprietary-web-blame-the-w3c/comment-page-2/#comment-1116 Tue, 13 Apr 2010 07:05:45 +0000 http://pseudosavant.com/blog/?p=148#comment-1116 The reason the W3C is slow is not because it sits back and watches the landscape, waiting for it to solidify, but rather because it is a committee. It takes forever to get a bunch of people to agree on something as complicated and specific as a web standard that is supposed to be completely reliable.

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By: akhterjahan https://pseudosavant.com/blog/2008/07/08/a-proprietary-web-blame-the-w3c/comment-page-2/#comment-1112 Sun, 14 Feb 2010 08:40:45 +0000 http://pseudosavant.com/blog/?p=148#comment-1112 The audio and video codecs it licenses continue to be major factors in why it succeeds. Codec vendors don’t give a rats *** about free and open–they want their royalties.

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By: Beautiful Home https://pseudosavant.com/blog/2008/07/08/a-proprietary-web-blame-the-w3c/comment-page-2/#comment-1107 Fri, 11 Dec 2009 13:31:43 +0000 http://pseudosavant.com/blog/?p=148#comment-1107 There is nothing in that site that couldn’t be implemented with specifications already released, including X/HTML, CSS, SVG, and JavaScript. Nothing. All of which are supported in Firefox, Opera, and Safari.

Zambezi Home & House home improvement, appliances, and furniture information.

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By: art by tolliver https://pseudosavant.com/blog/2008/07/08/a-proprietary-web-blame-the-w3c/comment-page-2/#comment-1105 Wed, 09 Dec 2009 06:57:27 +0000 http://pseudosavant.com/blog/?p=148#comment-1105 I really doubt that AJAX is a kludge, especially because there are many popular toolkits out there, and Microsoft fully supports it, and is going head-to-head with their Volta for .NET, as opposed to Google’s GWT for Java. Many Web 2.0 sites like World of Warcraft Armory, Digg and Flickr support related technologies (i.e. XML and JSON streams, which are used with AJAX clients).

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By: smallbama https://pseudosavant.com/blog/2008/07/08/a-proprietary-web-blame-the-w3c/comment-page-2/#comment-1104 Mon, 16 Nov 2009 06:34:17 +0000 http://pseudosavant.com/blog/?p=148#comment-1104 The WHATWG was born not out problems with the timetables, but rather some serious contention in W3Cs XHTML2 standard.

Smallbama

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By: ratasratonesrateros.com https://pseudosavant.com/blog/2008/07/08/a-proprietary-web-blame-the-w3c/comment-page-2/#comment-1097 Tue, 04 Aug 2009 02:34:22 +0000 http://pseudosavant.com/blog/?p=148#comment-1097 need more understanding to say a toolkit is needed to make AJAX easier is misrepresentation and maybe misunderstanding of the technology.

http://www.kasskooye.net

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By: rigatoursim.com https://pseudosavant.com/blog/2008/07/08/a-proprietary-web-blame-the-w3c/comment-page-2/#comment-1096 Tue, 04 Aug 2009 02:33:17 +0000 http://pseudosavant.com/blog/?p=148#comment-1096 The problem with JavaScript is the lack of a proper run-time library. To write any significant AJAX application requires one to first build a bunch of run-time functions which should just be part of JavaScript.

Too much time..

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By: Joaquin Menchaca https://pseudosavant.com/blog/2008/07/08/a-proprietary-web-blame-the-w3c/comment-page-2/#comment-1082 Fri, 17 Apr 2009 10:13:02 +0000 http://pseudosavant.com/blog/?p=148#comment-1082 My 2 cents on things:

On area HTML and related web technologies do not address well is scalable media suited for cellphones, PDAs, Gameboys, etc. There’s WML/WAP technologies, but these are different than HTML, and require server side application to tailor custom content or down-render HTML content to WML (e.g. in-house tools or commercial solutions like OpenWave)

Flash and Silverlight others (JavaFX) and address that market, and thus may be contenders for the next mobile market standard. Without tight integration of technologies (which would need SVG for scalable graphics and animation), I don’t see how current web solutions will survive.

Ultimately though, it depends on the toolkits. Flash offers a solution to animators (artists types), and Silverlight has solutions for web authors, animators, and developers. JavaFX system looks promising, but does not seem as flexible + intuitive as Flash Studio or Microsoft offerings.

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By: Joaquin Menchaca https://pseudosavant.com/blog/2008/07/08/a-proprietary-web-blame-the-w3c/comment-page-2/#comment-1081 Fri, 17 Apr 2009 09:42:11 +0000 http://pseudosavant.com/blog/?p=148#comment-1081 @ Article

I really like your article, but I think there are some items perhaps not fully in line with perspective on things.

W3C vs WHATWG (HTML5)…

The WHATWG was born not out problems with the timetables, but rather some serious contention in W3Cs XHTML2 standard. As far as I recall, XHTML2 required 5-7 different mark-up languages, broke prior standards, and ignored natural evolution of technologies, like JavaScript, in favor of XML substitute. Implementers of web technologies (Apple, Opera, Mozilla) just said “Hell No” essentially to XHTML2.

While I think XML and XML based languages are a blessing compared to prior closed technologies, some XML standards like XHTML2 were questionable IMHO. It seemed to me that W3C was focused on proving theories without any practical connection to implementing the technologies or market realities. As another disconnect example, W3C’s XSD was quite grotesquely complex as well, and 3rd parties made things like RELAX-NG as simple alternatives.

AJAX a Kludge?

I really doubt that AJAX is a kludge, especially because there are many popular toolkits out there, and Microsoft fully supports it, and is going head-to-head with their Volta for .NET, as opposed to Google’s GWT for Java. Many Web 2.0 sites like World of Warcraft Armory, Digg and Flickr support related technologies (i.e. XML and JSON streams, which are used with AJAX clients).

To say a toolkit is needed to make AJAX easier is misrepresentation and maybe misunderstanding of the technology. Flash and Silverlight use toolkits, and future versions of Silverlight even uses one of these AJAX toolkits (jQuery I think it is).

Lastly, AJAX is not really much of a technology, but rather a technique, and its ideas are incorporated into Silverlight, and can be incorporated into Flash as well (possibly with technologies like Flex or OpenLaszlo).

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By: Joaquin Menchaca https://pseudosavant.com/blog/2008/07/08/a-proprietary-web-blame-the-w3c/comment-page-2/#comment-1080 Fri, 17 Apr 2009 09:23:41 +0000 http://pseudosavant.com/blog/?p=148#comment-1080 @ Richard M. Smith’s JavaScript comment:

What scripting language do you think Flash and Silverlight use? Yeah, that’s JavaScript, based on ECMA standard. And consequently, Adobe and Mozilla are collaborating on the next JavaScript (ActionScript) engine that will be used for Flash, Acrobat, and Firefox as well as other technologies.

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By: ANN: RealThinClient components looking for a new owner - Page 2 | keyongtech https://pseudosavant.com/blog/2008/07/08/a-proprietary-web-blame-the-w3c/comment-page-2/#comment-1069 Sun, 18 Jan 2009 16:56:59 +0000 http://pseudosavant.com/blog/?p=148#comment-1069 […] Re: ANN: RealThinClient components looking for a new owner "Kevin Powick" <nospam> wrote in message news:xn0fshkwi81sohs000… http://pseudosavant.com/blog/2008/07…blame-the-w3c/ […]

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By: Rory https://pseudosavant.com/blog/2008/07/08/a-proprietary-web-blame-the-w3c/comment-page-2/#comment-1055 Wed, 05 Nov 2008 20:56:08 +0000 http://pseudosavant.com/blog/?p=148#comment-1055 As web developers we have the last say in what platform we develop in. So don’t point to the big guys. New kids will come in and hop on flash or silver light with no clue what a w3c is:P Posting new sites everyday. There is Content Management Systems that offer redundant code for cross browser experience. For those that are “tired of html/javascript”. Microsoft screw the pooch on adding w3c standards to their browser. There implementation of java javascript html and DOM are frustrating to most of us who try and provide support to the non ms empire. Microsoft makes good and bad products. Microsoft started as a client on this posix enviroment and Mac joined after. Microsoft leverages itself into new markets with its client. Look at the server market and you can see the ruthless tactics of microsoft.

Anyways treat Microsoft like Microsoft treats everything else add another layer for Microsoft clients to conform to standards. Non Microsoft browsers will always be quicker. Rather then coding a webpage for 2 DOM’s IE and W3C use something like IE7 , dojo, etc. javascript library.

Or better yet make a nice grey page that says Download Firefox 3.

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By: pd https://pseudosavant.com/blog/2008/07/08/a-proprietary-web-blame-the-w3c/comment-page-2/#comment-958 Tue, 19 Aug 2008 08:41:12 +0000 http://pseudosavant.com/blog/?p=148#comment-958 Your argument’s premise is fatally flawed in it’s distinction between Microsoft/Adobe/Closed and W3C/WHATWG/Open.

The reality it that Microsoft is a member of the W3C and have done everything they possibly can to slow W3C progress to a crawl. The perfect example is Microsoft’s refusal to continue innovating with their browser and their inability to simply implement the fundamental standards of which they were a party to developing with the W3C.

First Microsoft illegally killed the browser market and monopolised it until Mozilla found a revenue model (Search preferences) and development style (FOSS) to hit back.

Secondly (and there is some timeline crossover) Microsoft sat on it’s hairy behemoth arse and refused to correct even the smallest flaws in the standards compliance of IE6.

The W3C is slow because Microsoft and others put corporate interests above those of the open web itself.

This is simple divide and conquer tactics and if we don’t recognise this, we will not move forward.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divide_and_rule

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By: Bookmarks about W3c https://pseudosavant.com/blog/2008/07/08/a-proprietary-web-blame-the-w3c/comment-page-2/#comment-931 Mon, 11 Aug 2008 06:31:24 +0000 http://pseudosavant.com/blog/?p=148#comment-931 […] – bookmarked by 4 members originally found by sinatauchiha on 2008-07-22 A Proprietary Web? Blame the W3C http://pseudosavant.com/blog/2008/07/08/a-proprietary-web-blame-the-w3c/ – bookmarked by 1 members […]

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By: Mufasa https://pseudosavant.com/blog/2008/07/08/a-proprietary-web-blame-the-w3c/comment-page-2/#comment-826 Thu, 31 Jul 2008 23:15:13 +0000 http://pseudosavant.com/blog/?p=148#comment-826 Hear, hear. I recently started blogging at the above link about what a new thin client might look like. I address some of your concerns about standards and proprietary technologies in the second post. Any ideas and feedback would be appreciated.

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By: Mozilla Standards Blog » Blog Archive » Building the Web, One Spec at a Time https://pseudosavant.com/blog/2008/07/08/a-proprietary-web-blame-the-w3c/comment-page-2/#comment-751 Thu, 17 Jul 2008 00:19:02 +0000 http://pseudosavant.com/blog/?p=148#comment-751 […] developers do happily bivouac in them, building some fairly compelling stuff. Some even argue that these proprietary platforms push the envelope more than what the web can do by itself, given the stagnancy of standards […]

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By: Building the Web, One Spec at a Time | arunerblog https://pseudosavant.com/blog/2008/07/08/a-proprietary-web-blame-the-w3c/comment-page-2/#comment-750 Wed, 16 Jul 2008 23:55:18 +0000 http://pseudosavant.com/blog/?p=148#comment-750 […] developers do happily bivouac in them, building some fairly compelling stuff. Some even argue that these proprietary platforms push the envelope more than what the web can do by itself, given the stagnancy of standards […]

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